Shundo David Haye – Zen Priest

‘So you should have clear distinction from [between] psychology and religion, and from cultural science, and from natural science, or else you will mix up your– you cannot discuss properly. Dogen Zenji had a clear distinction between those kind of study. Not only Dogen Zenji, but also all Buddhists says there is no inborn sage or natural– natural Shakyamuni Buddha [laughs]. We are all Shakyamuni Buddha, but if you do not practice or if you do not train yourself, you cannot be Shakyamuni Buddha. You have hidden nature, but if you do not realize hidden nature, we cannot be Shakyamuni Buddha. To realize his nature as your own is religion.

Now we want to discuss something. If you have some problem with– some of you has problem. On that problem, we want to discuss how to solve the problem. And if you have some question in our religion or what I said, please ask me.

Student A: What do you mean by “cultural science”? I don’t understand. Do you mean, like, philosophy?

SR: Philosophy, and education, ethics– those are culture– sociology, psychology– the culture concerned about mind– our mind, not materialistic side of our life, but spiritual side of– basis of our mind.

Student B: Do you mean “culture” in the sense of American culture or French culture or Japanese culture, or do you mean civilization?

SR: Civilization, yeah. Not special culture, but culture in– in various countries, which is– is the studies of mind.

Student C: What about things like LSD?

SR: [Laughs.] LSD? LSD. I don’t–

Student C: Can it help?

SR: I have no experience of taking LSD, so– but that is not so important, you know, problem at all. That is just like a, I think, medicine. So of course if you take too much medicine, it’s [laughs]– it will not [be] good for you. But there is no objection to– in taking it, I think.

But what I am afraid of is they– they will mixed up with religion: LSD– Zen and LSD [laughs]. There is very, very little, you know, relationship or– it is quite another matter, you know– another problem. LS- — problem of LSD and problem of religion is quite different matter. And– but actually, religious people may use it, you know. But when we discuss something or when we want to figure out the clear idea of LSD, we must make this point clear, or else we will, you know, we will have useless discussion. One is going this way, and one is going this way. And they are– they will have no chance to meet [laughs].

Student D: It has to be understood for what it is, you know, not–

SR: Yeah, what it is. It is quite clear–

Student D: — like to criticize the [4-8 words unclear].

SR: — it is a kind of medicine, you know.

Student D: Right.

SR: It’s– the study of LSD is the study of science, not religion. Non- — what I notice is in America or maybe in Europe too, a great confusion– there is big confusion in religion and, you know, other culture.

Student D: In other cultures?

SR: Mm-hmm. In thinking. In everyday life, you know, it must be mixed up, you know. Religion should use various means to help people. But the– if the leaders of religious movement do not– mixed up, you know, religion and other culture, it may be awful.

Student D: Where– where– where is the line drawn? [1-2 words.]

SR: No, there is no need to draw a line like LSD. You can use it. I’m not talking about “you should not use it,” or something like that. How to use it, and who is using it? You are using it [laughs].

Student D: I have used it, but I’m not using it.

SR: But that “you” is problem, you know? Small “you” or big “You.” [Laughs, laughter.]

Student D: I know. Who is using it.

SR: This is the most important point. If you do not know what is “you,” to use something is, you know [laughs, laughter]– is crazy. So this point is very– very, very important. And this point is missing. So it is necessary to make this point very, very clear because almost all people mixed up many things. So they will waste their time a lot– not only waste of time, but also it is suffering [laughs] actually. Don’t you think so?’ (from the Suzuki Roshi Archive)

This discussion comes from the very oldest tape to be recorded at Sokoji, in July 1965, as the sangha embarked on a week-long sesshin. Perhaps Suzuki Roshi had been dealing with questions like this from day one; certainly he maintained a similar stance towards drugs and the other issues of the time.